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專訪聲音藝術家Samson Young 楊嘉輝
採訪、撰文:郭昭蘭
聲音藝術家Samson Young的創作包括作曲，聲音藝術與數位藝術。目前任教於香港城市大學創意媒體學院的Samson，早年接受嚴格古典音樂作曲訓練，由於香港數位藝術環境的刺激，Samson的創作轉向數位音樂，後於普林斯頓大學攻讀音樂博士學位，是電子音樂先驅者Paul Lansky的學生。
Jeffrey Shaw曾經對Samson的作品評論如下, “…一些原本平凡無趣的東西，通過你的裝置變得有趣。在我看來，你並不是在研究一般的人機互動，而是在探索其還原(reduction) – 一個簡單操作的還原而產生的許多美學、觀念性及互動的有趣體驗。因此你可以對這些小玩具有藝術性的野心(不要輕視其為娛樂或消遣而已) ”； CNN global portal- CNNgo 推薦Samson 是20位值得關注的香港人士之一 (Top 20 people to watch in Hong Kong)。
Samson Young於2011年9月來台於失聲祭演出，藉此機會獨立策展人郭昭蘭，針對他多樣的訓練背景，將聲音藝術帶進過去由視覺所主導的畫廊，以及香港的聲音藝術發展等問題進行訪問。採訪當天Samson Young同時發表他的作品「念起塵動，覺之即無 (Homage to Alvin Lucier)」。
我知道你有專業作曲訓練的背景，請你談談你是如何從古典音樂訓練的背景走向新媒體藝術的？
我大學唸的是作曲，典型的作曲家訓練是為交響樂寫譜子。雖然在當時的教育裡，我也受過廣義的電子音樂訓練，比如像是Kalheinz Stockhausen，John Cage之類的作品，但是在作曲家的訓練裡，面對這類藝術家的方式就是學一學，知道有這麼一回事之後，笑一笑就可以把他們給「處理」掉了。結束澳洲大學的學習之後，我回到香港唸碩士，同時開始接觸新媒體藝術家，我的世界在這個時候開始變大。我開始寫具有空間性的音樂，並且實驗新的技法，比如在琴馬與手指板的中間去拉出很奇怪的聲響 ，也可以說就是所謂的實驗音樂；但是，當時的我還不會去思考自己與表演者之間的關係，也不會去想自己與表演場地的關係。這些問題從來不是作曲家習慣要去問的問題。 當然也不會去問為什麼不是在畫廊或流行音樂的場域演出？對於作曲家來講，音樂廳就好比是視覺藝術家之於畫廊的白盒子。
當我開始接觸科技藝術後， 我便開始重新回頭去看John Cage、白南準這些早期藝術家的作品。由於新媒體藝術的刺激，讓我打算出國的時候，至少不會想要進去像茱利亞音樂學院這樣的研究所，而是科技元素很重，電腦元素很重的普林斯頓的研究所。普林斯頓的音樂系統來自作曲家Ｍilton Babbitt，他是普林斯頓大學的開山祖師，是美國現代音樂的音樂家，還是在用十二平均律作曲法（twelve tone）去寫音樂的人，他將所有從 A 到 G 的音符，用特別的排列去作曲。 那是一個很現代的方法，也因為他，普林斯頓獲得了個「保守」的名聲 。但是到了80年代有個作曲家是Ｍilton的學生 叫做 Paul Lansky ，他是我的指導教授，也是最早用編程去做音樂的音樂家之一。Paul Lansky 寫了第一個用 Csound 來創作的曲子，他所用的編程語言叫作 Csound，是第一個以 C 語言為基礎的音樂程式語言。Paul Lansky 在普林斯頓的時候與當時的哥倫比亞大學合作建立了北美第一大的電腦音樂中心，叫做 Computer Music Center Columbia –Princeton。不過這是80年代的事情，後來哥大沒有持續發展下去，僅僅在普林斯頓。
這麼聽起來，顯然香港當時新媒體藝術環境給你不少刺激，你要不要談談在你去普林斯頓念書之前香港新媒體藝術的狀況？
比方說藝術家Christopher Lau劉柏基，他是從作錄像開始的。還有Ellen Pau鮑藹倫，也是錄像藝術家，他有一個機構叫做Videotage。我在香港兩年讀碩士的期間常去那裡消磨時光，Videotage場地雖然不大，但是有一個香港的錄像檔案資料庫。香港每年還有個藝術節叫做「微波」。我以前常去那個微波新媒體藝術節，那裡的作品可以很好玩，完全不像我以前所接觸的音樂。它讓我看到音樂外面的世界。當時他們的媒材是錄像。香港其實也是一直到最近才有人自稱是聲音藝術家。
其實更早之前的70年代，龔志成在香港演藝學院教過書，做過一些實驗性的音樂。奇怪的是，他沒在音樂系而是在舞蹈系教音樂欣賞，給編舞者與舞者上課。他原來是美國作曲家George Crumb的學生，Crumb對聲音有很特殊的敏感性，可以說是真的玩聲音本身以及聲音效果的作曲家。龔志成的作曲比較能跳脫學院之外，雖然他的背景是古典音樂的訓練，但是我這樣說其實很不確定，因為他是拉小提琴出來的，只能說他拉了很久的小提琴。他的音樂家式的音樂理論是很紮實的。他的劇場作品有很多是跟文字的跨界實驗。我不知道對他來說古典訓練究竟是不是很有意識，很有自覺的東西。但是對我來講，古典音樂的訓練是很有意識，也很有自覺的東西，那對我肯定是一個包袱，所以我要一直注意著它。但是對龔志成來講，他有沒有包袱我就不知道。
那麼，對你來說古典音樂訓練的包袱是什麼呢？
就如我剛才說的，古典音樂的世界很小。古典音樂有個食物鏈，而作曲家被放在那個最高的位置：寫好譜子，交給演出者，接著聽聽他們演奏，然後再改一改。無論如何作曲家始終是在台座上面，而且是台座上的最高點。作曲家在演奏廳裡面是透明的，這個機制不認為作曲家有可能放錯位置，因為音樂廳的歷史是為作曲家而起的，而且還都是西方人，白人。音樂廳從貝多芬到莫札特一路下來，從來沒有表演者被記得，音樂廳的機構也是為作曲家而存在的。這裡有作曲家自我中心的想法；對於什麼是音樂，什麼不是音樂這個系統也有很強烈很確定的區分。當然在實務上，古典音樂有他的限制，例如寫給管弦樂團的曲子，拍子不清楚明白的話，他們會亂。
所以也有些實驗音樂是把曲子做的很亂，很複雜，來挑戰管弦樂的極限 ，90年代末的Stockhausen,Ferneyhough作的曲都是很複雜。不過，後來也就沒有人在做， 它變成只能在觀念上滿足作曲家的慾望。話說回來，那些複雜的作曲交給了演奏者，他們也只能給你一個盡可能接近的樣貌，因為演奏者畢竟不是機器。
現在我的創作很大的動力是來自這些毒，我就像是在排毒，很有意識的努力想把這些毒排掉。不過，雖然我會很有自覺得想要排毒，但是有時候我知道我會排不了。 比如紐約那件作品「17」我擔任的是作曲者，由室內樂樂手演出的曲子。那個曲子電子音樂的部份與樂手演奏的部份是同步的，其實我可以放開，不要弄得那麼複雜的節奏。本來在紙上它其實是非常簡單的節奏，但是最後我給演奏者一個相當忙錄，非常激烈的電子音樂部份所以表演者幾乎沒有取得他們表演的自由度。在那件作品裡面，作為作曲者的我還是在一個很高的位置，那些表演者必須忙著在追譜。某種程度他們在這個表演裡面，變成是賽博格人了。我知道我試著不要將曲子弄得那麼複雜，但是在創作的過程中，我也擔心萬一要是有意外（表演者跟不上）怎麼辦，所以我要弄一個很忙錄的電子音樂部份，即使出錯也在我控制之內。當然，這是我內在的糾結。
也許就在這樣看見又不能避免的時候， 我的創作在進展著，也試圖解決一些問題。當你一開始決定你的角色是作曲者， 而他們只在執行你給的任務的時候， 就已經事先決定全部了。就像傳統的演奏家，他們是注定要從音樂史上消失的，因為整個音樂機制並沒有給他們提供機會！我還是給一點點的自由，那個自由是，我留了空間需要他們來表演。但我很瞭解，我又犯的什麼錯，我想我會繼續重複這樣的錯的。
最近我看到有些聲音藝術家被邀請到畫廊去做展覽; 聲音藝術進入畫廊的同時，聲音藝術進入過去以視覺為主導的空間裡，聲音藝術家轉而製作聲音雕塑與聲音裝置，你怎麼看這個現象？
我覺得畫廊與美術館本來就是一個以視覺邏輯來操作的地方，視覺藝術中曾經用一些觀念藝術的方法去跟這樣的機制作對抗。像表演藝術是從時間著手，他們以時間換取空間的方式作對抗。當你把聲音拿進來…你做為一個策展人，你一定瞭解，聲音也是在這種環境底下去進入了畫廊; 聲音至少需要媒材，比如喇叭，別得都不想 ，當有一個喇叭在那裡的時候，它就已經就變成一個雕塑了 沒其他辦法了。
我在想聲音藝術有沒有可能帶進新的脈絡進來，而不是以會發出聲音的雕塑或裝置進入過去被視覺藝術主導的空間中。
你講的沒錯，但是你的擔心是從策展人的角度所發出的擔心嗎？
我想我比較像是從觀察者的角度 。
我認為現在我們在談的是很特定的聲音藝術。廣義的聲音藝術跟多媒材的聲音，音樂，噪音的狹義的定義也不同，它其實是非常的包容。它有一些主要關心的問題，比如現象學的課題、認為聲音不一定要是雕塑的附屬元素、它要抗拒為了敘述性而生產聲音等等。它可以是十六世紀好幾個聲部的合唱團那種聲音，也可以是實驗性的噪音，或者是當代的聲音都可以進入這個聲音藝術的平台的。它重新把一般不當為聲音藝術的都當作聲音藝術。 所以如果聲音藝術是一個人的話，它也很高興自己有一個手指頭伸到了畫廊去，聲音慢慢散開去，並且把所有關於聽覺文化的東西全部包進來，這跟視覺文化的企圖是一樣的。視覺文化不只單單是傳播媒體類型，設計類型，或博物館裡面的視覺藝術；它以一個感官去定義一個文化，那是一個很大的視野。對我來講，那是聲音藝術討論寶貴的地方。它同時在談博物館裡面聲音侵略與被收編的問題，同一種的哲學它也在處理像社區裡有人拉二胡，它在空間有怎樣的痕跡等問題，所以我覺得無所謂，不用去擔心聲音藝術進入畫廊的問題。
不過，也許你看的很準確。聲音藝術進入視覺主導的空間所帶來的一些變化。例如Christian Marclay早期是一個DJ，他作了一些作品被博物館收藏。 他的作品很視覺的，比方一些不可能的樂器。吹不出來的小號樂器。 還有用卡帶弄出來的mobius strip(莫比烏斯帶)；也有一些很純粹的東西，把黑膠唱片剪一剪然後再放回去的一個動作。
在我聽來你的例子還是聲音文化的東西，基本上還不算出賣什麼或者有種尷尬的狀態
不過，也許你的擔心也應驗了 。Christian他現在已經沒有在做跟聲音有關的作品了。他往錄像的方向去了。我想你擔心的東西會持續發生，但是也沒辦法啊。最有趣的不一定會在畫廊裡面。聲音藝術如果是一個人的話，你沒有去關注它，它已經存在那裡很久了，現在突然它變成有討論價值的，它還是在作自己的東西，也許在實踐者來講，還是沒變。
香港的聲音藝術有它自己的命題嗎？
這個問題很難解答，要是你問香港的藝術有自己的命題嗎？我也答不出來耶。 這是一個很大的問題。香港的藝術在一個很奇怪的狀況底下，你們在台灣講在地性的問題已經講到濫了，香港卻一直到現在才能講。因為我們不知道為什麼要講，沒有人要給你一個voice，你就乖乖的作中國藝術家就好了。 反而現在回歸了以後，我們變成可以有一個voice，要去想為什麼我們要有一個voice。恩，應該是說我看不出來（為什麼我們要有一個voice）吧 ！也不是說香港的藝術家不會去作跟在地性有關的作品， Anson Mak做過田野錄音，主要是作社區的錄音相關的作品。 另外，有個聲音藝術家叫做 Cedric Maridet，他把田野聲音錄下來之後，把它當成材料再使用它。不過，我不知道怎麼回答這個問題，香港應該是沒有自己的命題吧。
除非我們能夠先把一堆聲音藝術家一起拿來看。我們卻連這個都沒能夠，別說是聲音藝術家了，就連要把當代藝術家放在一起，有一個風景，或者能夠看出一個敏感性，我們連這部份也沒能好好的作。我們不像台灣作歷史作得很好，你看司徒強死了，他明明是香港藝術家，香港報紙也不會寫，年輕藝術家也沒有很知道他是誰。這太恐怖了， 要是司徒強是台灣人的話，他這種輩分的藝術家，隨便一個美術館已經在計畫準備他的回顧展了吧?
談談你今天的表演吧！
今天作品是向Alvin Lucier作品“I am sitting in a room different from the one you are in now ”的致敬。他一直有口吃的問題，因此想要作一件作品把他的口吃smooth out。他在房間中現場再播，再錄，再播，再錄。 這樣作的同時就是不斷把周圍環境的氛圍錄進去，而他的卡帶也不斷衰退，直到你聽不見他的話。
Alvin Lucier也是第一個嘗試用腦電波作音樂的人，但是在1960年代， 他只能把腦波中的阿法波(alpha waves)作成很無次序的正旋波而已 。不像現在可以作成不同音調的東西，所以我想把這兩個東西結合起來。我要作一個表演，但是表演的成功是來自失敗。
古典音樂裡面有一個對於技巧精湛，渾然天成(idea of virtuosity)的概念，那是指表演者要非常的在場，要能夠hold住表演的整個場面，以致達到一個表演者的靈氣。精湛的技巧這個概念在古典音樂裡面是很重要。但我在想我有沒有可能作一個表演，它的精湛技巧是建立在它不能有技巧，而且是它只能失敗。今晚的表演，將敲擊器安裝在腦波監測儀上，樂器它會動是因為你專注到一個程度，但是當你專注到某個程度的時候，你聽見它，你又給了一個破壞，於是你就不斷在這個回饋的循環裡面。 聲音最好當然是馬達動的很厲害， 聲音動的很激烈的時候，但是我每次抵達那個狀態時，只能是一個很小的片刻， 因為當我發覺它來了的時候，我便分心。所以這也是說，我要成功的那個技巧其實是要透過失敗來達到的。表演的前提是我要在場，但是我要不在場我才能完成表演，這變成是一個奇怪的循環。
謝謝你接受採訪
Digital Transformation of the Prince of Classical Music in Hong Kong
Interview with Artist Samson Yonug
Date: 2011/10/22
Interview & Author Jau-Lan Guo
Translation by Phoebe Hao
The creation of sound artist Samson Young includes composition, sound art and digital art. Teaching in the School of Media Arts of Hong Kong City University now, Samson accepted strict classical training in music composition and turns into digital music out of the stimulation of the digital art environment in HK. He has completed a PhD on Chinese contemporary music at Princeton University in the USA where he was a student of electronic music pioneer Paul Lansky.
Jeffrey Shaw wrote after viewing the work at an exhibition, “…something banal cannot be authentically pleasurable, and your devices are authentically pleasurable. So in my view you are not researching the banality of human-machine interaction, rather I think you are exploring its reduction – a reduction to basic operations where there is a lot of aesthetic, conceptual and interactive pleasure to be propounded. Therefor you can be artistically ambitious about these little toys (and not settle for mere amusement or anecdote).” CNN global portal- CNNgo recommends Samson as the Top 20 people to watch in Hong Kong.
Samson Young is on stage at the Lacking Sound Festival on September, 2011. By this chance, the independent curator JauLan Guo interview with him for the diverse background of training, push sound art into the gallery which was dominated by visual art in the past and the development of sound art in Hong Kong. On the day of interview, Samson shows his work「 I am thinking in a room, different from the one you are hearing in now (Homage to Alvin Lucier)」which is a tribute to composer-sound artist Alvin Lucier.
I know you have a professional training in classical music composition, talk about your training from classical music to new media art?
My undergraduate major is composing which is a traditional training> although I have received electronic music training from Kalheinz Stockhausen,John Cage. But that is just a training you can just forget about it. When I returned to Hong Kong after my study in Australia I started to meet new media artists. My world was wide open then and I started to do spatial music and experimented new skills, said make strange noise from pulling piano keys and finger board that is a kind of experimental music. But I never considered the relationship in between myself and performer, neither to about the relationship in between myself and stage. This is not a question for composer. And there is no question for the reason why pop music did not take place in the gallery. To a composer, music hall is a whit box as visual artist to gallery.
From the stimulation of new media art , I tried to find a graduate school with more technical elements not just like the Juilliard School of Music. And I goes to Princeton. The music system of Princeton is from composer Milton Babbitt who is a contemporary musician in the America, still in use of the method of twelve tone to write music so to put a “conservative” image for Princeton. Until the 80’s, Paul Lansky who is a student of Milton started to do Csound – a C language based coded music and he is my advisor. He worked with Columbia University to start the Computer Music Center Columbia –Princeton which is the top computer music center in North America.
Obviously the new media art environment triggers you a lot in Hong Kong. Could you tell us more about the status of HK before you went Princeton?
Christopher Lau worked on video and Ellen Pau is an video artist too, he runs an organization Videotage where I spent a lot of time in my master degree time. The space of Videotage is limited but they have an archive of Hong Kong video. There is a Microwave New Media Festival, I used to play there. The works are fun and are totally different what I was doing. Let me see the outside world about music. They are using video the only media. It is recently people claim to be sound artist.
Actually back to the 70s,Kung Chi Shing was doing dome experimental music. He was an instructor in the Department of Dance to teach music appreciation rather in the Department of Music. He is a student of USA composer, George Crumb so he has solid training in classical music. He plays violin. He was experimented transboundary text work in theater. But I am not sure whether the classical training to him is a with conscious or not. To me it is certainly a kind of burden I have to keep track of it.
Then, what is your burden of the training in classical music?
As I just mentioned, it is a small world of classical music. It is a food chain and composer is on top of it- you finish the music score, hand to the performers and listen to their performance the do some adjustments. Composer is always on top of the stage and his position is clear in the music hall. Since from Beethoven to Mozart all the way down, the history of music hall is for composers, especially for Western and White. None of the performers will be remembered. The system is strong and distinction is determined as for what is music and what is not music. But of course there are limitations in classical music, for example, the scores for orchestra, if the tempo is not clear to understand, they will be in chaos.
The motivation of my creation now is from these toxic, I am in detoxification process with conscious. But sometimes I can’t. As in the work 「17」in New York, it is a simple note on paper but I kept performers very busy and did not have a freedom to well performed. I kept the highest position as composer and the performers almost become a Cybrog.
My creation is in progress and tries to solve some problems. But when you determine your role as a composer, everything is set just like those no name composers in the past. There is no opportunity in this music mechanism. But still I will release some freedom, some room for their performance. But I am clear what mistakes I was making and I think I will keep on making such mistakes.
I saw some sound artists are invited to do exhibition in gallery recently, sound art entering into the gallery where in the past led by visual art. What do you see the phenomenon in which sound artists turned to sound sculpture and the sound device?
I think galleries and the museum is always a place with logic of visual arts. People try to fight it with conceptual arts and performing arts is time based. As a curator, you know sound at least should be a media. A speaker in the museum, it becomes a statue. That is the way.
I was thinking if sound art may be bringing in a new context but rather a sound making sculpture or device into the visual arts leading space in the past.
Yes, you are correct, but if your concern comes from a view of a curator?
I think I am from the perspective of an observer more.
I think we are discussing about specific sound arts. A broad multi-media sound art is with sound, music, noise which with different narrow definitions. It is very inclusive. Its major concerns includes like the phenomenological issue that sound should not be a subsidiary element of sculpture and resist to produce sound out of narration. It can in the form of a chorus of the 16th century or experimental noise which is in many different styles. If you see sound art as a human and he put a finger into the gallery happily. Sound spread gradually and includes all auditory cultures it is with the same attempt like the visual cultures. Visual cultures are with a broad view not just a type of communication medium, design styles or the visual arts in the museum, it uses senses to define a culture. To me, this is what the preciousness to discuss sound arts. People talked about the problems of sound aggression and incorporated. By the same logic to deal with Erhu playing in the residential area and trace in space etc. That is why I think it does not matter to concern the problem of sound art in the gallery.
But maybe you are visionary. Sound art do changes the visual lead space. Christian Marclay is a DJ earlier; his works were collected by museum in a very visual style. He uses junk musical instruments installation and makes video tapes a mobius strip or cut vinyl records then put them together.
Does Hong Kong's sound art has its own proposition?
This is tough question. Even for the proposition of the art in Hong Kong will be hard to answer. You Taiwan people discuss localization for a ling time but we are just in the beginning. We do not have a voice and did not see the reason why we should have a voice. I am not saying artists in Hong Kong did not work on local elements. Anson Mak do field recording in the communities. Cedric Maridet uses the recordings as elements of his sound art. Maybe we don’t have our proposition.
Unless we collect all sound artists list first but we failed to have it. Not even for a full contemporary artists list. The history in Taiwan is well recorded. SZETO KEUNG is obvious an artist of Hong Kong, there is no news of his death and seems the young artists did not him at all. This is very terrible. If Szeto is a Taiwanese, as a prestigious artist there must be some retrospective exhibitions in the museum already.
Talk about your performance today!
Works of today is “I am sitting in a room different from the one you are in now”(Homage to Alvin Lucier). It is a tribute to composer-sound artist Alvin Lucier, who was the first person to create music out of brainwave signals back in the 1960s.
There is an idea of virtuosity in classical music which means the presence of the performer so to hold the whole stage to a performer's aura. The expert technique in classical music is a very important concept. I am thinking if I can do a performance to which with no technique but failure. The show of tonight , In this work, I used two sets of research-grade brainwave sensor to monitor the EEG brainwave signals emitted by the performers. Several solenoid motors are connected to the sensors, and they reflect the performers' concentration level. The more focused the performers are, the more activated the motors will become. While Lucier used EEG signals essentially as input signal randomizer, in my work concentration level is pre-determined and written into the musical notation. Maintaining a consistently high level of concentration proved to be difficult though - an aural awareness of my focused stated is distracting.
Thank you for this interview.
採訪、撰文:郭昭蘭
聲音藝術家Samson Young的創作包括作曲，聲音藝術與數位藝術。目前任教於香港城市大學創意媒體學院的Samson，早年接受嚴格古典音樂作曲訓練，由於香港數位藝術環境的刺激，Samson的創作轉向數位音樂，後於普林斯頓大學攻讀音樂博士學位，是電子音樂先驅者Paul Lansky的學生。
Jeffrey Shaw曾經對Samson的作品評論如下, “…一些原本平凡無趣的東西，通過你的裝置變得有趣。在我看來，你並不是在研究一般的人機互動，而是在探索其還原(reduction) – 一個簡單操作的還原而產生的許多美學、觀念性及互動的有趣體驗。因此你可以對這些小玩具有藝術性的野心(不要輕視其為娛樂或消遣而已) ”； CNN global portal- CNNgo 推薦Samson 是20位值得關注的香港人士之一 (Top 20 people to watch in Hong Kong)。
Samson Young於2011年9月來台於失聲祭演出，藉此機會獨立策展人郭昭蘭，針對他多樣的訓練背景，將聲音藝術帶進過去由視覺所主導的畫廊，以及香港的聲音藝術發展等問題進行訪問。採訪當天Samson Young同時發表他的作品「念起塵動，覺之即無 (Homage to Alvin Lucier)」。
我知道你有專業作曲訓練的背景，請你談談你是如何從古典音樂訓練的背景走向新媒體藝術的？
我大學唸的是作曲，典型的作曲家訓練是為交響樂寫譜子。雖然在當時的教育裡，我也受過廣義的電子音樂訓練，比如像是Kalheinz Stockhausen，John Cage之類的作品，但是在作曲家的訓練裡，面對這類藝術家的方式就是學一學，知道有這麼一回事之後，笑一笑就可以把他們給「處理」掉了。結束澳洲大學的學習之後，我回到香港唸碩士，同時開始接觸新媒體藝術家，我的世界在這個時候開始變大。我開始寫具有空間性的音樂，並且實驗新的技法，比如在琴馬與手指板的中間去拉出很奇怪的聲響 ，也可以說就是所謂的實驗音樂；但是，當時的我還不會去思考自己與表演者之間的關係，也不會去想自己與表演場地的關係。這些問題從來不是作曲家習慣要去問的問題。 當然也不會去問為什麼不是在畫廊或流行音樂的場域演出？對於作曲家來講，音樂廳就好比是視覺藝術家之於畫廊的白盒子。
當我開始接觸科技藝術後， 我便開始重新回頭去看John Cage、白南準這些早期藝術家的作品。由於新媒體藝術的刺激，讓我打算出國的時候，至少不會想要進去像茱利亞音樂學院這樣的研究所，而是科技元素很重，電腦元素很重的普林斯頓的研究所。普林斯頓的音樂系統來自作曲家Ｍilton Babbitt，他是普林斯頓大學的開山祖師，是美國現代音樂的音樂家，還是在用十二平均律作曲法（twelve tone）去寫音樂的人，他將所有從 A 到 G 的音符，用特別的排列去作曲。 那是一個很現代的方法，也因為他，普林斯頓獲得了個「保守」的名聲 。但是到了80年代有個作曲家是Ｍilton的學生 叫做 Paul Lansky ，他是我的指導教授，也是最早用編程去做音樂的音樂家之一。Paul Lansky 寫了第一個用 Csound 來創作的曲子，他所用的編程語言叫作 Csound，是第一個以 C 語言為基礎的音樂程式語言。Paul Lansky 在普林斯頓的時候與當時的哥倫比亞大學合作建立了北美第一大的電腦音樂中心，叫做 Computer Music Center Columbia –Princeton。不過這是80年代的事情，後來哥大沒有持續發展下去，僅僅在普林斯頓。
這麼聽起來，顯然香港當時新媒體藝術環境給你不少刺激，你要不要談談在你去普林斯頓念書之前香港新媒體藝術的狀況？
比方說藝術家Christopher Lau劉柏基，他是從作錄像開始的。還有Ellen Pau鮑藹倫，也是錄像藝術家，他有一個機構叫做Videotage。我在香港兩年讀碩士的期間常去那裡消磨時光，Videotage場地雖然不大，但是有一個香港的錄像檔案資料庫。香港每年還有個藝術節叫做「微波」。我以前常去那個微波新媒體藝術節，那裡的作品可以很好玩，完全不像我以前所接觸的音樂。它讓我看到音樂外面的世界。當時他們的媒材是錄像。香港其實也是一直到最近才有人自稱是聲音藝術家。
其實更早之前的70年代，龔志成在香港演藝學院教過書，做過一些實驗性的音樂。奇怪的是，他沒在音樂系而是在舞蹈系教音樂欣賞，給編舞者與舞者上課。他原來是美國作曲家George Crumb的學生，Crumb對聲音有很特殊的敏感性，可以說是真的玩聲音本身以及聲音效果的作曲家。龔志成的作曲比較能跳脫學院之外，雖然他的背景是古典音樂的訓練，但是我這樣說其實很不確定，因為他是拉小提琴出來的，只能說他拉了很久的小提琴。他的音樂家式的音樂理論是很紮實的。他的劇場作品有很多是跟文字的跨界實驗。我不知道對他來說古典訓練究竟是不是很有意識，很有自覺的東西。但是對我來講，古典音樂的訓練是很有意識，也很有自覺的東西，那對我肯定是一個包袱，所以我要一直注意著它。但是對龔志成來講，他有沒有包袱我就不知道。
那麼，對你來說古典音樂訓練的包袱是什麼呢？
就如我剛才說的，古典音樂的世界很小。古典音樂有個食物鏈，而作曲家被放在那個最高的位置：寫好譜子，交給演出者，接著聽聽他們演奏，然後再改一改。無論如何作曲家始終是在台座上面，而且是台座上的最高點。作曲家在演奏廳裡面是透明的，這個機制不認為作曲家有可能放錯位置，因為音樂廳的歷史是為作曲家而起的，而且還都是西方人，白人。音樂廳從貝多芬到莫札特一路下來，從來沒有表演者被記得，音樂廳的機構也是為作曲家而存在的。這裡有作曲家自我中心的想法；對於什麼是音樂，什麼不是音樂這個系統也有很強烈很確定的區分。當然在實務上，古典音樂有他的限制，例如寫給管弦樂團的曲子，拍子不清楚明白的話，他們會亂。
所以也有些實驗音樂是把曲子做的很亂，很複雜，來挑戰管弦樂的極限 ，90年代末的Stockhausen,Ferneyhough作的曲都是很複雜。不過，後來也就沒有人在做， 它變成只能在觀念上滿足作曲家的慾望。話說回來，那些複雜的作曲交給了演奏者，他們也只能給你一個盡可能接近的樣貌，因為演奏者畢竟不是機器。
現在我的創作很大的動力是來自這些毒，我就像是在排毒，很有意識的努力想把這些毒排掉。不過，雖然我會很有自覺得想要排毒，但是有時候我知道我會排不了。 比如紐約那件作品「17」我擔任的是作曲者，由室內樂樂手演出的曲子。那個曲子電子音樂的部份與樂手演奏的部份是同步的，其實我可以放開，不要弄得那麼複雜的節奏。本來在紙上它其實是非常簡單的節奏，但是最後我給演奏者一個相當忙錄，非常激烈的電子音樂部份所以表演者幾乎沒有取得他們表演的自由度。在那件作品裡面，作為作曲者的我還是在一個很高的位置，那些表演者必須忙著在追譜。某種程度他們在這個表演裡面，變成是賽博格人了。我知道我試著不要將曲子弄得那麼複雜，但是在創作的過程中，我也擔心萬一要是有意外（表演者跟不上）怎麼辦，所以我要弄一個很忙錄的電子音樂部份，即使出錯也在我控制之內。當然，這是我內在的糾結。
也許就在這樣看見又不能避免的時候， 我的創作在進展著，也試圖解決一些問題。當你一開始決定你的角色是作曲者， 而他們只在執行你給的任務的時候， 就已經事先決定全部了。就像傳統的演奏家，他們是注定要從音樂史上消失的，因為整個音樂機制並沒有給他們提供機會！我還是給一點點的自由，那個自由是，我留了空間需要他們來表演。但我很瞭解，我又犯的什麼錯，我想我會繼續重複這樣的錯的。
最近我看到有些聲音藝術家被邀請到畫廊去做展覽; 聲音藝術進入畫廊的同時，聲音藝術進入過去以視覺為主導的空間裡，聲音藝術家轉而製作聲音雕塑與聲音裝置，你怎麼看這個現象？
我覺得畫廊與美術館本來就是一個以視覺邏輯來操作的地方，視覺藝術中曾經用一些觀念藝術的方法去跟這樣的機制作對抗。像表演藝術是從時間著手，他們以時間換取空間的方式作對抗。當你把聲音拿進來…你做為一個策展人，你一定瞭解，聲音也是在這種環境底下去進入了畫廊; 聲音至少需要媒材，比如喇叭，別得都不想 ，當有一個喇叭在那裡的時候，它就已經就變成一個雕塑了 沒其他辦法了。
我在想聲音藝術有沒有可能帶進新的脈絡進來，而不是以會發出聲音的雕塑或裝置進入過去被視覺藝術主導的空間中。
你講的沒錯，但是你的擔心是從策展人的角度所發出的擔心嗎？
我想我比較像是從觀察者的角度 。
我認為現在我們在談的是很特定的聲音藝術。廣義的聲音藝術跟多媒材的聲音，音樂，噪音的狹義的定義也不同，它其實是非常的包容。它有一些主要關心的問題，比如現象學的課題、認為聲音不一定要是雕塑的附屬元素、它要抗拒為了敘述性而生產聲音等等。它可以是十六世紀好幾個聲部的合唱團那種聲音，也可以是實驗性的噪音，或者是當代的聲音都可以進入這個聲音藝術的平台的。它重新把一般不當為聲音藝術的都當作聲音藝術。 所以如果聲音藝術是一個人的話，它也很高興自己有一個手指頭伸到了畫廊去，聲音慢慢散開去，並且把所有關於聽覺文化的東西全部包進來，這跟視覺文化的企圖是一樣的。視覺文化不只單單是傳播媒體類型，設計類型，或博物館裡面的視覺藝術；它以一個感官去定義一個文化，那是一個很大的視野。對我來講，那是聲音藝術討論寶貴的地方。它同時在談博物館裡面聲音侵略與被收編的問題，同一種的哲學它也在處理像社區裡有人拉二胡，它在空間有怎樣的痕跡等問題，所以我覺得無所謂，不用去擔心聲音藝術進入畫廊的問題。
不過，也許你看的很準確。聲音藝術進入視覺主導的空間所帶來的一些變化。例如Christian Marclay早期是一個DJ，他作了一些作品被博物館收藏。 他的作品很視覺的，比方一些不可能的樂器。吹不出來的小號樂器。 還有用卡帶弄出來的mobius strip(莫比烏斯帶)；也有一些很純粹的東西，把黑膠唱片剪一剪然後再放回去的一個動作。
在我聽來你的例子還是聲音文化的東西，基本上還不算出賣什麼或者有種尷尬的狀態
不過，也許你的擔心也應驗了 。Christian他現在已經沒有在做跟聲音有關的作品了。他往錄像的方向去了。我想你擔心的東西會持續發生，但是也沒辦法啊。最有趣的不一定會在畫廊裡面。聲音藝術如果是一個人的話，你沒有去關注它，它已經存在那裡很久了，現在突然它變成有討論價值的，它還是在作自己的東西，也許在實踐者來講，還是沒變。
香港的聲音藝術有它自己的命題嗎？
這個問題很難解答，要是你問香港的藝術有自己的命題嗎？我也答不出來耶。 這是一個很大的問題。香港的藝術在一個很奇怪的狀況底下，你們在台灣講在地性的問題已經講到濫了，香港卻一直到現在才能講。因為我們不知道為什麼要講，沒有人要給你一個voice，你就乖乖的作中國藝術家就好了。 反而現在回歸了以後，我們變成可以有一個voice，要去想為什麼我們要有一個voice。恩，應該是說我看不出來（為什麼我們要有一個voice）吧 ！也不是說香港的藝術家不會去作跟在地性有關的作品， Anson Mak做過田野錄音，主要是作社區的錄音相關的作品。 另外，有個聲音藝術家叫做 Cedric Maridet，他把田野聲音錄下來之後，把它當成材料再使用它。不過，我不知道怎麼回答這個問題，香港應該是沒有自己的命題吧。
除非我們能夠先把一堆聲音藝術家一起拿來看。我們卻連這個都沒能夠，別說是聲音藝術家了，就連要把當代藝術家放在一起，有一個風景，或者能夠看出一個敏感性，我們連這部份也沒能好好的作。我們不像台灣作歷史作得很好，你看司徒強死了，他明明是香港藝術家，香港報紙也不會寫，年輕藝術家也沒有很知道他是誰。這太恐怖了， 要是司徒強是台灣人的話，他這種輩分的藝術家，隨便一個美術館已經在計畫準備他的回顧展了吧?
談談你今天的表演吧！
今天作品是向Alvin Lucier作品“I am sitting in a room different from the one you are in now ”的致敬。他一直有口吃的問題，因此想要作一件作品把他的口吃smooth out。他在房間中現場再播，再錄，再播，再錄。 這樣作的同時就是不斷把周圍環境的氛圍錄進去，而他的卡帶也不斷衰退，直到你聽不見他的話。
Alvin Lucier也是第一個嘗試用腦電波作音樂的人，但是在1960年代， 他只能把腦波中的阿法波(alpha waves)作成很無次序的正旋波而已 。不像現在可以作成不同音調的東西，所以我想把這兩個東西結合起來。我要作一個表演，但是表演的成功是來自失敗。
古典音樂裡面有一個對於技巧精湛，渾然天成(idea of virtuosity)的概念，那是指表演者要非常的在場，要能夠hold住表演的整個場面，以致達到一個表演者的靈氣。精湛的技巧這個概念在古典音樂裡面是很重要。但我在想我有沒有可能作一個表演，它的精湛技巧是建立在它不能有技巧，而且是它只能失敗。今晚的表演，將敲擊器安裝在腦波監測儀上，樂器它會動是因為你專注到一個程度，但是當你專注到某個程度的時候，你聽見它，你又給了一個破壞，於是你就不斷在這個回饋的循環裡面。 聲音最好當然是馬達動的很厲害， 聲音動的很激烈的時候，但是我每次抵達那個狀態時，只能是一個很小的片刻， 因為當我發覺它來了的時候，我便分心。所以這也是說，我要成功的那個技巧其實是要透過失敗來達到的。表演的前提是我要在場，但是我要不在場我才能完成表演，這變成是一個奇怪的循環。
謝謝你接受採訪
Digital Transformation of the Prince of Classical Music in Hong Kong
Interview with Artist Samson Yonug
Date: 2011/10/22
Interview & Author Jau-Lan Guo
Translation by Phoebe Hao
The creation of sound artist Samson Young includes composition, sound art and digital art. Teaching in the School of Media Arts of Hong Kong City University now, Samson accepted strict classical training in music composition and turns into digital music out of the stimulation of the digital art environment in HK. He has completed a PhD on Chinese contemporary music at Princeton University in the USA where he was a student of electronic music pioneer Paul Lansky.
Jeffrey Shaw wrote after viewing the work at an exhibition, “…something banal cannot be authentically pleasurable, and your devices are authentically pleasurable. So in my view you are not researching the banality of human-machine interaction, rather I think you are exploring its reduction – a reduction to basic operations where there is a lot of aesthetic, conceptual and interactive pleasure to be propounded. Therefor you can be artistically ambitious about these little toys (and not settle for mere amusement or anecdote).” CNN global portal- CNNgo recommends Samson as the Top 20 people to watch in Hong Kong.
Samson Young is on stage at the Lacking Sound Festival on September, 2011. By this chance, the independent curator JauLan Guo interview with him for the diverse background of training, push sound art into the gallery which was dominated by visual art in the past and the development of sound art in Hong Kong. On the day of interview, Samson shows his work「 I am thinking in a room, different from the one you are hearing in now (Homage to Alvin Lucier)」which is a tribute to composer-sound artist Alvin Lucier.
I know you have a professional training in classical music composition, talk about your training from classical music to new media art?
My undergraduate major is composing which is a traditional training> although I have received electronic music training from Kalheinz Stockhausen,John Cage. But that is just a training you can just forget about it. When I returned to Hong Kong after my study in Australia I started to meet new media artists. My world was wide open then and I started to do spatial music and experimented new skills, said make strange noise from pulling piano keys and finger board that is a kind of experimental music. But I never considered the relationship in between myself and performer, neither to about the relationship in between myself and stage. This is not a question for composer. And there is no question for the reason why pop music did not take place in the gallery. To a composer, music hall is a whit box as visual artist to gallery.
From the stimulation of new media art , I tried to find a graduate school with more technical elements not just like the Juilliard School of Music. And I goes to Princeton. The music system of Princeton is from composer Milton Babbitt who is a contemporary musician in the America, still in use of the method of twelve tone to write music so to put a “conservative” image for Princeton. Until the 80’s, Paul Lansky who is a student of Milton started to do Csound – a C language based coded music and he is my advisor. He worked with Columbia University to start the Computer Music Center Columbia –Princeton which is the top computer music center in North America.
Obviously the new media art environment triggers you a lot in Hong Kong. Could you tell us more about the status of HK before you went Princeton?
Christopher Lau worked on video and Ellen Pau is an video artist too, he runs an organization Videotage where I spent a lot of time in my master degree time. The space of Videotage is limited but they have an archive of Hong Kong video. There is a Microwave New Media Festival, I used to play there. The works are fun and are totally different what I was doing. Let me see the outside world about music. They are using video the only media. It is recently people claim to be sound artist.
Actually back to the 70s,Kung Chi Shing was doing dome experimental music. He was an instructor in the Department of Dance to teach music appreciation rather in the Department of Music. He is a student of USA composer, George Crumb so he has solid training in classical music. He plays violin. He was experimented transboundary text work in theater. But I am not sure whether the classical training to him is a with conscious or not. To me it is certainly a kind of burden I have to keep track of it.
Then, what is your burden of the training in classical music?
As I just mentioned, it is a small world of classical music. It is a food chain and composer is on top of it- you finish the music score, hand to the performers and listen to their performance the do some adjustments. Composer is always on top of the stage and his position is clear in the music hall. Since from Beethoven to Mozart all the way down, the history of music hall is for composers, especially for Western and White. None of the performers will be remembered. The system is strong and distinction is determined as for what is music and what is not music. But of course there are limitations in classical music, for example, the scores for orchestra, if the tempo is not clear to understand, they will be in chaos.
The motivation of my creation now is from these toxic, I am in detoxification process with conscious. But sometimes I can’t. As in the work 「17」in New York, it is a simple note on paper but I kept performers very busy and did not have a freedom to well performed. I kept the highest position as composer and the performers almost become a Cybrog.
My creation is in progress and tries to solve some problems. But when you determine your role as a composer, everything is set just like those no name composers in the past. There is no opportunity in this music mechanism. But still I will release some freedom, some room for their performance. But I am clear what mistakes I was making and I think I will keep on making such mistakes.
I saw some sound artists are invited to do exhibition in gallery recently, sound art entering into the gallery where in the past led by visual art. What do you see the phenomenon in which sound artists turned to sound sculpture and the sound device?
I think galleries and the museum is always a place with logic of visual arts. People try to fight it with conceptual arts and performing arts is time based. As a curator, you know sound at least should be a media. A speaker in the museum, it becomes a statue. That is the way.
I was thinking if sound art may be bringing in a new context but rather a sound making sculpture or device into the visual arts leading space in the past.
Yes, you are correct, but if your concern comes from a view of a curator?
I think I am from the perspective of an observer more.
I think we are discussing about specific sound arts. A broad multi-media sound art is with sound, music, noise which with different narrow definitions. It is very inclusive. Its major concerns includes like the phenomenological issue that sound should not be a subsidiary element of sculpture and resist to produce sound out of narration. It can in the form of a chorus of the 16th century or experimental noise which is in many different styles. If you see sound art as a human and he put a finger into the gallery happily. Sound spread gradually and includes all auditory cultures it is with the same attempt like the visual cultures. Visual cultures are with a broad view not just a type of communication medium, design styles or the visual arts in the museum, it uses senses to define a culture. To me, this is what the preciousness to discuss sound arts. People talked about the problems of sound aggression and incorporated. By the same logic to deal with Erhu playing in the residential area and trace in space etc. That is why I think it does not matter to concern the problem of sound art in the gallery.
But maybe you are visionary. Sound art do changes the visual lead space. Christian Marclay is a DJ earlier; his works were collected by museum in a very visual style. He uses junk musical instruments installation and makes video tapes a mobius strip or cut vinyl records then put them together.
Does Hong Kong's sound art has its own proposition?
This is tough question. Even for the proposition of the art in Hong Kong will be hard to answer. You Taiwan people discuss localization for a ling time but we are just in the beginning. We do not have a voice and did not see the reason why we should have a voice. I am not saying artists in Hong Kong did not work on local elements. Anson Mak do field recording in the communities. Cedric Maridet uses the recordings as elements of his sound art. Maybe we don’t have our proposition.
Unless we collect all sound artists list first but we failed to have it. Not even for a full contemporary artists list. The history in Taiwan is well recorded. SZETO KEUNG is obvious an artist of Hong Kong, there is no news of his death and seems the young artists did not him at all. This is very terrible. If Szeto is a Taiwanese, as a prestigious artist there must be some retrospective exhibitions in the museum already.
Talk about your performance today!
Works of today is “I am sitting in a room different from the one you are in now”(Homage to Alvin Lucier). It is a tribute to composer-sound artist Alvin Lucier, who was the first person to create music out of brainwave signals back in the 1960s.
There is an idea of virtuosity in classical music which means the presence of the performer so to hold the whole stage to a performer's aura. The expert technique in classical music is a very important concept. I am thinking if I can do a performance to which with no technique but failure. The show of tonight , In this work, I used two sets of research-grade brainwave sensor to monitor the EEG brainwave signals emitted by the performers. Several solenoid motors are connected to the sensors, and they reflect the performers' concentration level. The more focused the performers are, the more activated the motors will become. While Lucier used EEG signals essentially as input signal randomizer, in my work concentration level is pre-determined and written into the musical notation. Maintaining a consistently high level of concentration proved to be difficult though - an aural awareness of my focused stated is distracting.
Thank you for this interview.
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